Curse

Chthon · Dec 28, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

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Originally Posted by MegaVolti

1. These criteria:

You're in the wrong thread then.

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2. Your assumption that AP would be superior is imho wrong.

It was a statement, not an assumption.

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The main damage is not done by CoP but by [[Wandering Eye] and [[Clumsiness]

1. If your main source of damage is a couple of skills on a 10 sec recharge, the build sucks.

2. The damage on CoP is higher than the damage on Wandering Eye/Clumsiness, and the AoE radius is bigger. Why on earth would you EVER choose to case one of those spells in place of casting CoP an additional time?

MegaVolti · Dec 28, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You're in the wrong thread then.

No. Well, I wouldn't mind getting 10p

But you obviously wrote these lines in this thread so I am in the right one.

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It was a statement, not an assumption.

Oh, I am sorry. I meant to say: Your statement is wrong. See below.

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1. If your main source of damage is a couple of skills on a 10 sec recharge, the build sucks.

8s recharge on average when using a 40/40 set. Did you even bother to read what I wrote? You have two skills with 8s on average. Add in [[arcane echo] and the occasional [[cry of pain] and you get one cast every 3 seconds on average. Each dealing 100 AoE damage and an additional 50 single target damage due to [[frustration].
AP + CoP will not give you more then one CoP every 3 seconds. Stuff simply doesn't die that fast, AP won't trigger that often.

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2. The damage on CoP is higher than the damage on Wandering Eye/Clumsiness, and the AoE radius is bigger. Why on earth would you EVER choose to case one of those spells in place of casting CoP an additional time?

As we just figured out, AP + CoP has no damage advantage at all. Or, if you are really awesome and can make AP trigger every few seconds, a very minor one.
It has a bigger radius, sure. No doubt about that. But it lacks shutdown. The interrupt will most likely not hit anything, especially when used against physicals. [[clumsiness] on the other hand is a sure interrupt. And that is why I would want to cast one of these spells instead of CoP

Add in the fact that any AP build has a high risk of being completely useless for 45s if the hex gets removed or if the enemy somehow survives too long (which is unlikely but will happen every now and then) and you have plenty of reasons to use my build over your AP one:
Better physical shutdown, less vulnerable to hex removal, less vulnerable to bad timing, about the same AoE damage with a smaller radius, higher single target damage.

As I said, there can simply be no doubt that it fulfills your criteria. The unique and useful thing it does is provide melee shutdown and damage. No other class or build can do that (as good).
AP builds are not build for shutdown but for pure damage so the comparison is actually a bad one. The amazing thing is that this build even does well compared to AP, despite having a completely different focus.

kostolomac · Dec 29, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Wandering eye's and clumsiness' only weak point is that it requires the monster to try to hit you , and these things are like molecules , completely unpredictable

MegaVolti , try the builds , or just try a common AP/CoP build and you'll see what Chthon is talking about. AP is beyond godly when paired with Finish Him! , and CoP's AoE is more than enough for general pve.

MegaVolti · Dec 29, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I tried several AP builds, on my Mesmer, Necro and Ele.
They work fine as long as monsters drop like flies. Which is most of the time in PvE. But when monsters drop that fast, the area is very easy and you could basically use auto-attack and win.
AP builds start to really suck when monsters stop dropping fast. Which happens in difficult spots. So when stuff gets rough, AP builds get bad. That's not really the best thing to aim for ...

The snipe to really finish off the harder AP target only works well with Discord-heroes. Henchmen are basically useless for that. So if you want to run the AP build with heroes and henchmen you are basically forced to use Discord, which I find quite restrictive.

Yes, Clumsiness and Wandering Eye require the monster to try to hit you. But since everything in PvE auto-attacks all the time that's not really an issue, with a little practice in picking the target they will trigger at least 95% of the time.

CronkTheImpaler · Dec 31, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

tried both builds and they work incredibly. the first build does take some attention but after gettin the swing of it, it really does an incredible job of reducing an entire mob. it simply degrades the entire mobs ability to do anything really.

maybe thats the real magic of the build. the entire mobs ability to run its own skillsets are disrupted to the point of uselessness.

Cronk

Paul Dawg · Jan 10, 2009, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Question: I know of five 5e, 1-sec casting time mes hexes:

Confusing Images (Illusion)
Ether Phantom (Inspiration)
Fragility (Illusion)
Mind Wrack (Domination)
Shrinking Armor (Illusion)

So which is the most suitable proc hex? Mind Wrack doesn't do much except fulfill the condition for CoP, so that seems like the weakest choice. In a different thread, you explained that you use Fragility, and I see your point that it meshes with "Finish Him!" But I'm curious about Confusing Images. I'm not a big mes player, so I don't know these details well, but I'm thinking especially if you're on your own (i.e. not in a Cryway party), wouldn't Confusing Images help other party members interrupt casters while you plow away with AP-AE-CoP? It's like a weak Arcane Conundrum.

(It's fun peeking in on the Mesmer threads and I can tell you there's no mes hate where I play! I absolutely detest facing a competent mesmer in pvp.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Fragility getting removed is only a minor issue. Most mobs lack hex removal. The few mobs that do have hex removal don't have much. You should be able to deal with them with leech signet, or draw out the removal and just reapply Fragility 5 sec later, or bring a second hex (or even AoE hex) to draw out the removal. In the uncommon event of heavy hex removal, you may need to bring an interruption hero or a hero with enough hexes to overload the removal.

Tyla · Jan 10, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Fragility or Mind Wrack. If you're using something you know you will hit the recharge change 100% (AP), go for Confusing Images - depending on the area, it could be beneficial or it can make you miss.

Paul Dawg · Jan 10, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Well, I was asking Chthon...

Chthon · Jan 11, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Well, I was asking Chthon...

Tyla is essentially right, but I'll reply too because you asked.

CI would work, but only for some areas.

The biggest problem is that it's self-removing. Your target can un-hex itself simply by casting. For example, CI isn't going to stick to something with RoF for long enough to finish your chain. That means that you need mixed mobs with non-casters or slow casters to avoid the problem.

A smaller problem is the recharge. If you're 100% sure of hitting your AP, and 100% sure CI won't get stripped, no problem. But if you're up against monsters where you have to bait or race removal, something with a 15 sec recharge is not a good choice.

Paul Dawg · Jan 12, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

OK, that's a good reason.

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Originally Posted by Chthon

The biggest problem is that it's self-removing. Your target can un-hex itself simply by casting.

Improvavel · Jan 13, 2009, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Well, I was asking Chthon...

Hug Tyla. Bad bad Paul Dawg...

Paul Dawg · Jan 14, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Chthon tends to give reasons. Tyla tends to give opinions.

Improvavel · Jan 14, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

Chthon tends to give reasons. Tyla tends to give opinions.

Chthon answer was more elaborated, yes, although in this case Tyla answer was reasoned.

When I've seen this I just though "Poor Tyla, must be feeling as the ugly duck!".

Paul Dawg · Jan 21, 2009, 08:54 AM // 08:54

I've been trying this build, and I hafta ask: Have you really done much hero-henching with it in Hard Mode? Cuz there's a serious problem. I've highlighted what's wrong. "Pick a new target"? What exactly are you supposed to do with this build if you go through your chain of [fragility]["by ural's hammer!"][arcane echo][cry of pain][cry of pain] and the foe you're attacking is nowhere near dead? You're stuck; you can't do ANYTHING. You have no further damage skills, in fact no useful skills of any kind except one shot of [leech signet], and meanwhile your two copies of [cry of pain] are cycling through their twelve-second recharge. Against strong mobs in HM that know how to heal, remove hexes, and so on, that's called fail.

And for that reason: I'm very dubious of ["by ural's hammer!"] because all it affects is [cry of pain] (and, if you get there, ["finish him!"]). Nice when it works; not so nice when you're stuck as in the above scenario. I think [ebon battle standard of honor] makes much more sense in this slot, because at least it helps your allies (such as minions--remember, we're hero-henching) do a little damage while you're sitting around waiting for your bombs to recharge.

In parties with several humans, builds like this might be feasible because the sheer power of multiple cries of pain must cause tremendous damage. But when I was the only happy human carrying the skill, I ran into too many cases where I effectively shut myself down and had to wait for my heroes pick up the slack until I could try [cry of pain] again (by which time [fragility] may well have been removed already).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

AP-AE-CoP

This is a damage build. It spams armor-ignoring damage in enormous packets with an enormous AoE radius. It also interrupts a little.

[build prof=Me/A name="AP-AE-CoP" fas=8 ill=8 ins=10 dead=10][Assassin's Promise][Leech Signet]["By Ural's Hammer!"][Fragility][Arcane Echo][Cry of Pain]["Finish Him!"][Ether Signet][/build]

(snip)

Usage:

Pick a target considering its location relative to the other monsters you want to hit with AoE and whether you'd like to interrupt it.
Fragility your target, AE, Ural's Hammer during AE, CoP, CoP, AP, Finish Him.
Now pick a new target. Fragility, Ural's Hammer during Fragility, CoP, CoP.
Everything should be dead. If something isn't, find a low-health target (if your current target didn't die, use it), AP, Finish Him, and repeat the dual-CoP spam until everything is dead.
Mix in Ether Signet to regain energy when needed and Leech Signet to interrupt and/or regain energy. Note: Don't use Ether Signet immediately after AE; instead, switch to your staff, CoP, then switch back to spear, Ether Signet.

Phe Belladona · Jan 21, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I've been trying this build, and I hafta ask: Have you really done much hero-henching with it in Hard Mode? Cuz there's a serious problem. I've highlighted what's wrong. "Pick a new target"? What exactly are you supposed to do with this build if you go through your chain of [fragility]["by ural's hammer!"][arcane echo][cry of pain][cry of pain] and the foe you're attacking is nowhere near dead? You're stuck; you can't do ANYTHING. You have no further damage skills, in fact no useful skills of any kind except one shot of [leech signet], and meanwhile your two copies of [cry of pain] are cycling through their twelve-second recharge. Against strong mobs in HM that know how to heal, remove hexes, and so on, that's called fail.

And for that reason: I'm very dubious of ["by ural's hammer!"] because all it affects is [cry of pain] (and, if you get there, ["finish him!"]). Nice when it works; not so nice when you're stuck as in the above scenario. I think [ebon battle standard of honor] makes much more sense in this slot, because at least it helps your allies (such as minions--remember, we're hero-henching) do a little damage while you're sitting around waiting for your bombs to recharge.

In parties with several humans, builds like this might be feasible because the sheer power of multiple cries of pain must cause tremendous damage. But when I was the only happy human carrying the skill, I ran into too many cases where I effectively shut myself down and had to wait for my heroes pick up the slack until I could try [cry of pain] again (by which time [fragility] may well have been removed already).

hold 'ctrl' while pushing the buttons your heroes and hench will get the hint

Paul Dawg · Jan 21, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Thanks for the tip, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Marverick · Jan 22, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I've been trying this build, and I hafta ask: Have you really done much hero-henching with it in Hard Mode? Cuz there's a serious problem. I've highlighted what's wrong. "Pick a new target"? What exactly are you supposed to do with this build if you go through your chain of [fragility]["by ural's hammer!"][arcane echo][cry of pain][cry of pain] and the foe you're attacking is nowhere near dead? You're stuck; you can't do ANYTHING. You have no further damage skills, in fact no useful skills of any kind except one shot of [leech signet], and meanwhile your two copies of [cry of pain] are cycling through their twelve-second recharge. Against strong mobs in HM that know how to heal, remove hexes, and so on, that's called fail.

And for that reason: I'm very dubious of ["by ural's hammer!"] because all it affects is [cry of pain] (and, if you get there, ["finish him!"]). Nice when it works; not so nice when you're stuck as in the above scenario. I think [ebon battle standard of honor] makes much more sense in this slot, because at least it helps your allies (such as minions--remember, we're hero-henching) do a little damage while you're sitting around waiting for your bombs to recharge.

In parties with several humans, builds like this might be feasible because the sheer power of multiple cries of pain must cause tremendous damage. But when I was the only happy human carrying the skill, I ran into too many cases where I effectively shut myself down and had to wait for my heroes pick up the slack until I could try [cry of pain] again (by which time [fragility] may well have been removed already).

3x [Discord] says hai.

Also throw an Ebon Vanguard Assassin at the target.

Chthon · Jan 22, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

I've been trying this build, and I hafta ask: Have you really done much hero-henching with it in Hard Mode? Cuz there's a serious problem... What exactly are you supposed to do with this build if you go through your chain of [fragility]["by ural's hammer!"][arcane echo][cry of pain][cry of pain] and the foe you're attacking is nowhere near dead?

SOunds like you need better hero builds.

The first half of the combo is 250 damage, plus anything fragility picks up off your team. If the other 7 members of your team haven't managed to do enough damage to push your target below 50% by the time you finish your second CoP, then you need a better team. Once below 50%, the rest of the chain is another 230. Again, if your team somehow fails to make up any hp that's left, then they... well... fail.

The second monster you choose to kill should start out 250 hp down, and you can deal another 480. Bosses aside, that's enough to kill a level 35 & 1/2 monster under the normal hp formula. If you have any trouble with that at all, then you're doing something wrong.

Paul Dawg · Jan 22, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Please, I'm running this with the same hero builds that I've used with other characters to vanquish every zone and HM dungeon in the game. It's not my heroes.

How are you figuring that "the rest of the chain is another 230"? "The rest of the chain" consists of a single skill, ["finish him!"]. Besides, there are PLENTY of times in difficult areas that two spurts of 125 damage plus whatever heroes and henches do is not nearly enough to bring a foe down below 50%, in which case ["finish him!"] is useless. Foes heal, you know, and in HM they're actually pretty good at it.

So where exactly have you tried hero-henching with this? I'm running it with modified Sabway heroes and ordinary henches; it works fine in easy zones, and has been failing miserably in the Charr zones in EotN in HM. That means I'm not even going to bother trying it someplace seriously tough like Vloxen HM.

Sure, if you had four or five or six people carrying this puppy, it would do a ton of damage. But that's not hero-henching.

Gods Feathers · Jan 22, 2009, 09:53 PM // 21:53

hey Chthon I really like the idea of the second one. I just wanted to ask what kind of builds you run with your heroes in certain types of areas. And regarding the build. Can this build work in pretty much any area when used properly? Or are there some areas you would suggest not using it, if so please do tell ^_^